Transcript
JOSE UGAZ: When you have systemic and structural corruption like you do in Papua New Guinea, and I would say the same for Solomon Islands, or Vanuatu or Fiji, or Tonga, or other Islands, you need also systemic structures and strategies and ways out. We have a chapter in Papua New Guinea and the reports we receive from that chapter is that there is a considerable amount of corruption in the public sector and many companies in the country also are involved in this type of practice. So what do we need to do on the preventative side, of course any means in order to introduce transparency and access to information. Freedom of speech involving the public opinion in order to know how the decision making processes are ongoing, will help to reduce corruption. Corruption is a result of concentration of power, excessive discretion of public officials and no, or very little accountability. And in more of these countries and many others around the world what we have usually concentrations of powers, authoritarian regimes, that are not explaining how decisions are taken, do not allow citizens access to the information they are entitled to, how the decisions are taken, who are taking those decisions, how the budgets are managing, how expenditures are done and, of course accountability of those public officials. They have to explain how they've been conducting that exercise of power and on the preventive side when you work with these parameters you probably will have a substantial reduction of corruption. On the other hand you need to break impunity. As one of the most outstanding experts in corruption, is a former professor from Harvard says "you need to fry some big fish" and our chapters in Solomon Islands and Vanuatu have been successful in investigating and pursuing and denouncing issues of corruption related to parliamentarians that are managing slush funds, you know to benefit themselves against the rights of the people. So preventive actions on one side, transparency, access to information, freedom of speech, space for democracy. On the other side you need justice, you need the systems, the justice administration systems you need the systems to work in order to break impunity and the justice systems. And those that incur corrupts systems pay for their actions, they must not get away with it.
DON WISEMAN: The problem comes back to the strength of the systems and, of course, because of all of the others things that have been going on, those systems very often, can be run down, can be undermanned, and can essentially lack the capability.
JU: Yes, then you have two issues to be in force. First of all we are living in a global world - countries aren't that isolated. I mean look at what is happening in Venezuela right now. Yesterday they had a referendum and it is clear that Maduro the president manipulating this referendum against the people. Immediately I think 12 co8untires across the world across the United States are not going to recognise this and they are isolating Maduro and he will probably have to stand down very soon. Here is the same situation, I mean the islands of the Pacific are near Australia, are near New Zealand and we expect that and New Zealand and Australia will be monitoring and observing how democracies are conducting there and how impunities are developing when corrupt practice occur. So external pressure in an international context is very relevant. The other element is public opinion and people. And people are demonstrating and people are outraged, I would say, around the world, not only in this part of the world against corruption and that's the purpose of an organisation like ours. We want to engage with people,we are denouncing issues and we will pursue them in order to try and obtain results.
DW: In terms of media and whatever, in terms of getting this message out very often what happens in Pacific countries when there are nefarious people in charge is the media is subjugated.
JU: Yes. And for us this is an issue, because journalism and especially investigative journalism are very useful partners in the work we do so freedom of speech is absolutely necessary. Not only in education with young people with kids, but journalists in order to try and strengthen their abilities. But it is also true that governments that are highly corrupt usually try to reduce the space of democracy, not allowing civil society or organisations to have a proper space and combatting independent journalism.
DW: Now, you’ve talked about Vanuatu, Solomon Islands and PNG. We, as a radio station, have had a lot of contact over the years with the TI people in those countries and there’s been a lot of discussion about the levels of corruption and various corrupt activities going on and TI has been doing its best to expose it. Are you looking at approaching things in a different way perhaps? Because this work has been going on, but maybe it’s not having as much effect as you would like I to have.
JU: Well I think we have achieved several issues. We have the UN Convention Against C orruption – and several treaties around the world. The OECD, the convention against transnational bribery, the World Bank, the G20, the G8. Almost every multi-national institution how has a priority on corruption and TI has been to some way, been supporting all of these efforts. But yes, you are right, we need to change our strategy and we have done that already. TI is moving to become a more type of activist organisation – we are speaking loudly, we are now denouncing and naming those responsible for these types of cases and we are even getting engaged in a specific cases against the corrupt. I can assure you that in years to come you will see TI much more confrontational against the corrupt.
