Pay equity changes: 'People's select committee' formed to gather evidence instead of 'high-flying cliches'

Former National MP Dame Marilyn Waring has gathered a group of female former MPs to hold their own 'people's select committee' on the government's pay equity changes.

The unofficial committee is rounded out with former MPs Jackie Blue, Jo Hayes and Belinda Vernon from National, Nanaia Mahuta, Lianne Dalziel, Steve Chadwick and Lynne Pillay from Labour, Ria Bond from New Zealand First and Sue Bradford from the Greens. All are working on a 'pro bono' - unpaid - basis.

Independent consultant Amy Ross, previously the Public Service Commission's lead on pay equity, and former Parliamentary librarian and researcher Bessie Sutherland would provide additional research support, and would be paid.

Dame Marilyn said they were planning to hold their first session, hearing from submitters, in Wellington on 11 August with subsequent sittings via Zoom to allow for submitters to attend from around the country. All sessions would be public.

She said they would be aiming to gather the evidence the government should have.

"I sat in a Parliament that was bedeviled by urgency under Muldoon... on many occasions. But my beef here is, where was the evidence?

"I'm sure it's there, but it has not had a vehicle for publicity. It has not been brought together in a consolidated, rigorous way for people to make their own decisions, as opposed to just listening to a lot of kind of high-flying cliches."

Some of the submitters on the original bill - like Business NZ - had changed their minds without explaining why, she said.

"We can see that 600 people or groups made submissions the last time the legislation was up for amendment, and we'll be sorting through those to invite key people who made submissions business New Zealand, EMA (Employers and Manufacturers Association), a whole range.

"We'll be inviting the 33 groups whose claims were effectively disbanded by this legislation, and we will hope to write a report for the public and for you all by Christmas."

While they would be unable to compel people to appear as Parliament could, they could offer confidentiality and anonymity to some submitters, she said.

"I expect from both the public and private sector that things will 'fall off a truck'," she said.

While the Public Service Association (PSA), the Council of Trade Unions and Whānau Manaaki Kindergartens were also providing support, Dame Marilyn said the idea was entirely hers. The former MPs gathered in less than a week.

"It was all my initiative. I did have a friend inside the PSA with whom I was corresponding about the legislation... and she said to me, can you think of anything? So I went for a long swim - which is when I think - and by the time I'd finished the swim, I thought, 'We'll have a select committee.'

"I started making calls on the seventh [of May], and it was over by the 12th."

She rejected any suggestion the committee's view was already bedded in, saying they would look at the changes made by the government and the evidence for and against.

"No. It's an evidence-gathering mission," she said. "There's going to be a really sound report. The government says that it wants to progress pay equity claims, the opposition is saying that it will rescind this and again address the legislation. So we're doing them all a good turn."

However, they did appear to agree that the process the coalition had taken in passing the legislative changes was inappropriate.

"Well, that's exactly how I couched my invitation to them - that we wanted evidence."

She said they were negotiating with Speaker Gerry Brownlee, hoping to hold the first session at Parliament - but Parliament itself would not be providing any organisational support.

'Wage theft on a national scale'

PSA national secretary Fleur Fitzsimons said they were "enormously proud" to be supporting the initiative, and would be making their own submission, "however, this should not have been necessary".

"The government - without any signaling during the election campaign and no ability for women to have their say in a select committee - committed constitutional vandalism and wage theft on a national scale. We really want the opportunity to be heard about how we achieve pay equity for New Zealand women," she said.

"The government say they want to achieve that too, so they should have nothing to be scared of in setting up their own select committee. However, given they are unwilling to do that at this stage, we're very supportive and welcoming of this 'people's select committee'."

In a statement, National Council of Women spokesperson Dellwyn Stuart said the women's organisations that made up their membership were shocked by "the arrogance displayed by the coalition government".

"This government is gaslighting women. It says one thing, and does the opposite. They have executed, under stealth, the biggest setback for women in 35 years.

"Through this people's select committee a vital platform for women's voices will be restored, and we encourage women and their representative organisations to make submissions."

Sue Bradford, no longer aligned with any party but whose views are still close to the Greens, said the process would take time and effort - but would be educational.

"It's so good that this people's select committee is being formed so that light can be cast as wide a light, as bright a light as possible on the truth of what the government's done," she said.

"Would be good to get to the bottom of the financial side of it and see how true the figures are."

She did not think much of the government's non-financial arguments.

"I just think the arguments the government made are totally spurious. The only true argument it feels to me is that there's no question that they want to save money at the cost of low-paid women.

"I will be interested, of course, to see more detail coming from submitters about… the detailed nature of the claims and comparators. But from everything I've heard in the past about pay equity claims, each one is made very seriously."

She said the government's urgency in making the changes was also "outrageous", but was confident the group's investigation would keep a relatively open mind.

"I can be open minded and hope that there will be sufficient... different points of vie, [but] it's hard to imagine that there'll be many from people who think it's a good idea to basically try and get rid of pay equity to the maximum extent possible."

Ria Bond said she was no longer connected to NZ First, and was disappointed to see the change go through.

"I was actually gutted to see this happen, really disappointed," she said.

"All the hard work that all former MPs have put forward, and myself, when we put that legislation through the House because on that we actually provided absolute transparency."

The select committee process they aimed to follow would do what the government should have, and provide a voice to New Zealanders, she said.

"It's very empowering to be giving them the opportunity to be heard ... [the government] blatantly chose not to give the opportunity to listen to submissions on this legislation.

"The voices of New Zealanders were actually ignored, the voices of those workers were ignored ... this gives all those that were ignored a place now to be heard."

She said the rapidity, and the use of urgency to achieve the change ahead of last week's Budget was "arrogant" and an abuse of process.

"We've all been taught about democracy and this coalition government just threw democracy to the side ... just smacks of arrogance."

Jo Hayes said she was keeping an open mind, but also said they were giving people the opportunity to be heard.

"I want to hear what people have to say. The fact it is a fact-finding process that we're doing is one of those things you do when you're on a select committee ... getting into the nuts and bolts of whatever the kaupapa.

"Fair pay for fair work is how I look at it, and I think that at times it's usually the women in our community that are the ones that are not afforded the opportunity to have fair and equitable pay ... if we can make it just one little voice being heard ... then I think we have achieved."

She said any time a government took a bill under urgency it should still be opened up to the public for scrutiny, regardless of whoever was in power.

"A little bit more explanation, description, reasons behind it could have been more forthcoming. It landed where it landed and I could be highly critical of the process but at the end of the day it's not going to actually change a lot ... we're questioning a process."

Workplace Relations Minister Brooke van Velden was unavailable to be interviewed on the matter, but in a written statement said the government did not intend any further changes to the pay equity law.

"We believe we've made the law simpler and more robust. Pay equity remains and the new system is now in place," she said. "Members of the public, including former MPs, are welcome to hold their own meetings."

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