Deputy Prime Minister and ACT Party leader David Seymour has hit back at criticism of his flagship Regulatory Standards Bill, defending the legislation against claims it breaches Treaty of Waitangi principles and contradicts its own standards when compared with the recently passed Pay Equity Bill.
In an at-times heated exchange with Guyon Espiner, Seymour stood firm on the need for regulatory reform despite New Zealand's high international rankings in governance and legal standards.
Espiner pointed out that New Zealand ranks 99 out of 100 for regulatory quality in the World Bank index, placing it just behind the global benchmark.
Seymour dismissed the ranking, arguing it measured whether a country is "basically a third-world country" and failed to capture the real-world frustrations faced by businesses, particularly in agriculture and construction.
"You can read all the indices you like, but once you start getting down to talking to the actual people … we have massive problems with regulation," Seymour said, citing delays in approval for lower-emission agricultural chemicals as one.
ACT Party leader David Seyour in studio for an interview on season 3 of 30 with Guyon Espiner. Photo: RNZ / Cole Eastham-Farrelly
Espiner went on to challenge Seymour on whether the government's recent Pay Equity Bill - pushed through under urgency - violated the principles laid out in the Regulatory Standards Bill itself. These principles include ensuring laws are not retrospective and that proper consultation takes place.
Seymour did not deny the lack of consultation or the retrospective nature of the law change - which left 33 current pay equity claimants in the lurch - but argued it was irrelevant.
"It was breached because it didn't matter," Seymour said.
"All we did was dismantle a Byzantine crazy system… deciding how much the government would pay different workers it was employing anyway."
He described the previous equity process as "effectively an internal government activity of arguing with each other" and derided those who had submitted pay appeals under the former system.
"They said, 'We work so hard.' I said, 'Really? You think work is arguing with each other?'."
The debate turned toward Māori engagement when Espiner pointed out the Waitangi Tribunal's conclusion that the Regulatory Standards Bill, due to a lack of meaningful consultation with Māori, breached the Treaty principles of partnership and active protection.
Seymour insisted Māori voices were heard through public consultation.
"We had 144 Iwi-based groups who submitted … If that's not enough, then I don't know what is."
However, Espiner highlighted that of the 23,000 total submissions, only 76 supported the bill - a support rate of just 0.33 percent.
Seymour dismissed the figure as misleading.
"That quantum reflects nothing more than the fact that it's got easier and easier for people to make really, frankly, fake submissions … They've got bots, they can make a submission."
Despite dismissing the opposing voices as fake, Seymour maintained that what mattered was not the opposition but the quality of the legislative framework, which is non-binding in its nature, thus not enforceable - despite the bill's $20 million price-tag.
Seymour argued the Regulatory Standards Bill was about transparency, not enforcement. He compared it to the Public Finance Act and the Reserve Bank Act - also non-binding in nature, but important for government accountability.
"There's nothing to stop a minister of finance writing to the governor of the Reserve Bank before an election saying, 'Run the presses, prime the pumps,'" Seymour said.
"But it does allow the voters to judge them for doing it… and I want to do the same thing for regulation."
Watch the full conversation with David Seymour and Guyon Espiner on 30 With Guyon Espiner.
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